[00:00:01] Sean Goheen (Host):
Greeting scholars and welcome to Following the Gong, a podcast of the Schreyer Honors College at Penn State.
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[00:00:12] Sean:
Following the Gong takes you inside conversations with our Scholar Alumni to hear their story so you can gain career and life advice and expand your professional network. You can hear the true breadth of how Scholar Alumni have gone on to shape the world after they rang the gone and graduated with honors and learn from their experiences so you can use their insights in your own journey. This show is proudly sponsored by the Scholar Alumni Society, a constituent group of the Penn State Alumni Association. I'm your host, Sean Goheen, class of 2011, and college staff member. If this is your first time joining us, welcome. If you're a regular listener, welcome back.
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Leadership consultant Ken Graham, class of 1967, joined following the Gong and Trier Student Council for a special live session to discuss leadership development success for scholars in their leadership roles and early careers. Ken retired from Royal Dutch Shell after a lengthy career in academia and industry focused on the study of leadership and developing leaders. This episode is a must listen for any scholar to set themselves up for success both while on campus and as they transition to the world of work. Ken's bio and a more detailed breakdown of the topics discussed and insights shared are in the show notes on your podcast app. With that, let's dive into our conversation with Ken Graham following the gong.
[00:01:43] Sean: Well, thank you all for joining us here on Following the Gong. I'm very excited to welcome in leadership expert, leadership coach, consultant, man of many words, Penn State alum and friend of the Honors College, Dr. Ken Graham. I think it's safe to say you probably would have been an honors scholar had the honors program been around when you were a student. So very excited to have you here today. We're recording this live at a student council meeting in fall 2023 in the grandfather clock Lounge in Atherton hall. And we're going to talk all things intersections of leadership, culture and early career success. But Ken, I'll let you take this part to start here. You have a standard way you like to start meetings or any other kind of speaking engagements. So if you want to explain what you're doing for those listening afterwards as well. So maybe they can incorporate this into their own lives, their own work, their own club meetings, wherever they think it might be useful.
[00:02:39] Ken Greaham: Yes, indeed, there are elements of process that people can actually borrow from each other and use. Please repeat after me. Good evening.
[00:02:47] Ken: We're going to trust that those who listen to the podcast asynchronously also are at least thinking. Good evening. Thanks for doing that I like to start with a safety briefing. Anyone here, show of hands. Have you ever done a safety briefing or ever had a safety briefing? Yes. Okay, good. Yes. Because we've been in sessions before. Please use the door in the back as our primary exit. And let me comment for those who are listening later. We've done a lot of these on Zoom, and one of the things I've learned is just ask people to realize you're in your apartment, you're in your home, your parents home, where you grew up. Ask this question. Most importantly, if you're elsewhere, if you're doing it alone, are you aware of who else is in the building and how to get them out? If there should be an emergency, it's a pretty important thing. You actually should have. Even at home, you should have an assembly point. Where is it? At the fire hydrant down the street or something. There ought to be a place where you go. That's what I'm about to explain here. From grandfather clock lounge, primary exit. The door through which you entered this one is blocked off. That's the reason they have the bookcase there. Please make a right turn. Very shortly, you're in the lobby. Make a right turn. Go through the main doors. We're out on the plaza. When you get to the sidewalk next to white building, turn left. So, so far, it is to the right, to the right, through the doors, to the left. The gazebo is at the corner. That's where we'll assemble. Just for your international knowledge, there are three different words that are used for this. They are assembly point, rally point, and muster point. So, please, if you see it on a wall somewhere when you're traveling, know all three of those are the same thing. Would you please also look around? Let's create four segments in this room. This segment from you with Acadia. The two on the floor. There's one segment, three on the seats, a segment. Three on those chairs. A segment. Three on those seats, a segment. Please look at the faces and be able to say, even in the dark, the people you are with are with you outside.
[00:04:52] Sean: And, Ken, I think you and I will be the fifth segment over here.
[00:04:55] Ken: Okay, let's do that. Thank you. Somehow I excluded us. We were tag alongs. I'm glad you said that. Thank you. So, when we get to an assembly point, we might be asked by first responders, was everyone in the grandfather Clark lounge? Are they with us? Leadership. It is said that in almost half the cases, leaders forget. After they have gone through a set of instructions, they forget to check for understanding. How would you check for understanding on a safety briefing? With what I just said, how would you check? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Yes, please.
You would ask. You ask questions. So I ask the question, where is our primary exit? How do you respond? Okay, you're already doing it. Most people point. I've even tested this in environments where I don't speak the same language as the audience, where I had Andre, my interpreter, on my left elbow. We're each wearing a sound device. You ask the question, he translates from English to Russian, and the entire audience of 72 people point to the appropriate exit. Which way are we turning? We go out that door. Which way is the first turn?
To the right. Correct. Next turn to the right. Thank you. Through the doors and left. Our assembly muster rally point is fantastic. One more thing on safety. Why do we do a safety briefing? How would you describe it? What's the purpose? Purpose matters in life. What's the purpose?
Ladder, please. Emma, you gotta be prepared. It's a mental rehearsal, right? I've heard all sorts of answers to this. I've done this with more than a thousand people, mostly stem people, at Royal Dutch Shell. And a fascinating thing happens if I keep it going and saying yes. And at about answer number six, someone will say, oh, we're leaders in this room. We are showing, caring for our team. That's an underlying. A very deep underlying purpose. Final thought. I was here as a young faculty member at Penn State teaching in smeel, and I was sent on a week long project to Venezuela. In Venezuela, staying in a hotel. It was sort of an old style, kind of a Humphrey Bogart sort of hotel, where your door opened to an outdoor balcony, which connected to the center of the hotel. There are two wings to the hotel, and you could see the rooms in the opposite wing. 230 in the morning, heard a commotion, walked out, and saw people jump off the second floor into the bushes because of a hotel fire in the other wing. After everything calmed down, I thought to myself, well, that's a once in a lifetime event. One hotel fire in my career, I've been in four. Three of them out of the country, the last one in Istanbul, in the Hyatt in Istanbul, with someone repeating loudly a staff member, do not use the elevator. He said it in English, he said it in Turkish, and he said it in a language I cannot identify. I have no idea. Two people walked down a corridor, got in the elevator or pushed a button, got in the elevator, and he's shouting, do not use the elevator. What is likely to happen in a hotel fire, you lose power. Would you like to spend your time in the cabin? Probably not. I have a suggestion for each of you. Whenever you check into a hotel, wherever your room is, after you put your bags in, walk back out. Find the exit for the safety stairs, not the elevator. Count the number of door frames between your door and those stairs. Why? Smoke rises. If you're in a fire, you're going to be on the floor and you won't know which doorway leads to the stairs. Please remember, if you don't remember anything else about a safety briefing, count the door openings between your door and the end. I didn't do that the first time. I can tell you that. By time number four, I have the habit. So thank you. Thanks for paying attention to safety. One of the reasons to pay attention to safety in my life is the fact that I worked for shell. And candidly, it's not entirely a safe business. So you have to think about these things. I found that if you have a drill for a safety briefing, people remember and it seems to help. So thanks.
[00:08:57] Sean: Thank you for that, Ken. And thank you for our stuco members for participating. Hopefully you listening later, able to start integrating that, thinking about different things. Obviously Penn State has the run hide fight model for active attacker situations. Fire, crazy things happen, so it's good to be prepared in show care.
[00:09:17] Ken: Indeed. Battle rehearsal.
[00:09:18] Sean: Now, Ken, you alluded a little bit to how that came about and how you've integrated that into all of your sessions that you do as a leadership consultant. Why don't you give us a little bit about your origin story, tell us about how you came to Penn State, your grad school experience, and give us a brief overview of your career with companies like you've mentioned, Royal Dutch Shell, and being on the faculty at Penn State at various points in your career.
[00:09:41] Ken: My pleasure. Indeed. Thank you. You know, my natural style would be with a group is to find out about you, have you do these flash introductions. Where were you living on your 16th birthday, et cetera? I need to tell you where I was living on my 14th birthday. I was living in Cambria County, Pennsylvania. Johnstown is on the southern edge of Cambria County. I went to high school in Evansburg. When you're 14, in a small community around a crossroads that has only 400 people, you need an escape plan. Penn State was my escape plan. I was actually at a community event and I asked one of the leaders, what do you do? And he said, well, I'm the student assistant here. I'm a student at Penn State. I said, really? Yes. And I was thinking about colleges, but it was far off. And my danger, the reason I needed an escape plan was everyone I knew graduated from school and went to work in a steel mill. I could have been drawn into that steel mill if I hadn't had an escape plan. I loved the Penn State catalog. Yes, they actually printed it. It was about that thick. It was like a medium sized village phone book. And you could go through and look at the majors. And I believe that roughly when I was 14, there were about 80 to 85 undergraduate majors. I had considered smaller schools. Now, a few years later, and I thought, I don't know what I want to do in my life. I don't know what my career will be. I need a supermarket because I need to be able to have choices and be able to make changes. So if I ask you, by a show of hands, how many of you have changed majors? Congratulations.
[00:11:05] Sean: I'd say it's pretty much like half the room.
[00:11:07] Ken: It's about half the room. And I'm thinking that those who listen to this podcast later may agree with the following statement. You're a true Penn stater. If you have changed your major at least once, I then add the following. You are a true Schreyer student. If you have two majors and a minor and are dabbling in some other things, you're super interested in quite a few items. And that comes to play in careers and it comes to play in leadership. So moving forward, Penn State undergrad. It actually says on my diploma, bachelor of science in business administration with honors, because honors programs were in the colleges, there was no university scholars program, and there was no shriek. So you earned the honors piece by attending the seminars and doing an honors thesis. I was thrilled to discover when I finished my honors thesis, which I thought was just maybe okay, that my department wanted extra copies of it. It was used in testimony before the Pennsylvania Senate Transportation committee because I had done a transportation study on the use of air freight in Pennsylvania. Just an interesting piece of research. There was funding available at the time for graduate work, so I stayed for a master's. I then had to solve a problem that fortunately is not with us right these days. And that is, there was an active draft, military draft. And I found that my best answer was to get into the army reserve in order to avoid the regular army. And it worked. I was gone for six months and I needed a job. I wanted to decide whether or not I should be an academic. I did this. One of the people in my reserve unit was a student at what we now call Penn State Harrisburg. And he introduced me to the head of the business program. And like that middle of the year, second semester, I'm hired to teach. I'm teaching supply chain and management. And I liked it, and I liked the students I faced. The first class, a third of the class were older than I was because they had graduated from high school, gone to the military, and were now back at university building their careers, often while working 40 hours a week. They were amazing people. I really enjoyed that. I went to University of Wisconsin Madison and I experienced the other side of academic life. After I had turned down every other offer as a PhD student and accepted Wisconsin, the department chair unfortunately passed away. There was only one other department chair and in nine months the United nations sent him to Ethiopia. I have no department. I rolled back to Penn State as an instructor and was given permission to enter the graduate school here. So I am a three time winner of Penn State degrees and I'm proud of it. It was fun. The last four years of my time at Penn State, I was responsible for. I headed something called Penn State executive programs. Penn State executive programs brought experienced and brings experienced leaders to campus, takes them through the curriculum pretty much at the MBA level, so that they will be more than just their specialty, which brought them to their companies originally. It prepares them for deeper leadership, for broader leadership responsibilities. I discovered in that job that I love to sell. I would call on over 100 companies a year. I'd go, for example, on a Sunday to Manhattan, check into a hotel. Five companies visited on Monday. I'd do the same thing all five days of the week, drive home on Friday night. I came to understand a bit about how what we did impacted people's leadership careers. And I didn't realize I was building on the track that leadership would be the one constant. Through my entire career. I knew I needed to work on the industry side to understand the rest of the equation. I remember thinking I'm about to leave the best job I may ever have in my entire career by leaving Penn State executive programs. The family went to Chicago. I worked for a consumer products company which was taken over 208 of us lost our job the same day. Now what? Joined two others to do some consulting. Ended up in financial services. Financial services had no international peace and I had a goal. The goal I had was to have international experience by living overseas. In an assignment, I got to do it of all places. At the University of Texas at Austin, we were developing an executive MBA in Mexico City. One of the fun projects it equaled doing Penn State executive programs. I continued to consult for a little bit, and the next thing I knew, Royal Dutch. Shell asked me to go to the Netherlands and be responsible for 6000 leaders who worked in 56 different countries around the world. They were known as the expat leaders. They were primarily British and Dutch, with a few Swiss, Belgians, French, some Canadians, and some Americans. But that was the expat group I left there. I even had an idea for an additional programming service that was not funded. I left there with a five year contract to consult for Shell, and I thought, it's not full time. I'll reengage the consulting I have in my career. Retired twice and failed both times. I still have not been able to do it. I do love to consult, and it brings me to the present day. Except for this. In 2015, I contacted Schreyer in the development office and asked if I could come to campus, meet with students individually, speak to classes, perhaps meet with staff and faculty. The first visit was four days long. We've gone through Covid and everything went to zoom. We've come back. The visits are now two weeks long. It's a lot of fun. It is a huge amount of fun. I'll push the pause button there.
[00:16:37] Sean: Well, we always enjoy when your visits every semester. Ken and I would like to point out that they are pro bono. So thank you for coming and giving of your time and talent to support not just Schreyer, but areas all over campus and sometimes even across the Commonwealth at Harrisburg, too, I think, right?
[00:16:55] Ken: Yes.
[00:16:55] Sean: We really appreciate that. Now, one of the questions I wanted to ask as we dive into our leadership for our student council members here, for others listening, because that is such an important part of the honors college. You've seen a lot in your career. How has the study of leadership in the field of coaching grown and evolved over time?
[00:17:14] Ken: It has been around a long time. If you did the 100 year history, I won't drag you through all of it, I promise. 100 year history is it originally started with time and motion studies. Can we have people do assembly work more effectively? Unfortunately, that led to a view of. It was then called management, that a manager, a supervisor, was to tell other people what to do and how to do it. So we went through a sort of a downhill slide for a time. It got better, especially after World War II, though the military experience led to a lot of civilian leaders who thought they too should tell people what to do, that it was about controlling behavior. We used to say, plan, organize staff, direct control. The control thing got overemphasized. What has shifted since, and you'll even see it in the literature. Most of the writing now uses the leadership word. It's much more about engagement. It does not use the management word as much, although both have to exist. A way to think about this is that management gets the best it can from existing resources. Leadership's role is to make the changes necessary so that the organization stays ahead of the needs of their customers. So leadership is very much about change. Management is much more about control.
[00:18:29] Sean: Awesome. And there's whole classes and programs and all sorts of things at smeel and across campus where I'm sure you can dive into these topics in more depth if you're interested.
[00:18:37] Ken: Oh, you bet.
[00:18:38] Sean: So, Ken, going back again, one of our mission principles is creating opportunities for leadership and civic engagement. The C in the ABC. So naturally, many of our scholars, obviously the ones you all hear tonight, are in student council, but they're involved in activities and leadership across whichever campus that they're at. From thawn to homecoming, UPUA, and just the thousand other organizations. So how would you recommend that our scholars talk about their campus leadership roles in interviews for internships or their first or second job?
[00:19:09] Ken: This question I really like because I have a belief I'd like to share with you. I believe leading in a student organization is more difficult than leading in, for example, a for profit corporation. And in between the two would be a not for profit in which many volunteers are involved. Why is that? Student organizations are 100% volunteers. Would you agree? I believe there's an organizational secret to a student organization, and you can say this in interviews for internships and beyond. The reason you're involved in this leadership is because most of all, leadership or leading is learned by doing it. That's principle number one. Principle number two. By all means, point out in an interview that since you're dealing with volunteers, you have to have ways of determining is the individual who says she or he will do something passionate about doing it, number one? And number two, will they fulfill, I believe, a leadership secret? And you can discuss this in an interview, is the following. Let's say you join an organization, but you're not an officer. A reason to do that would be to include it in your resume, and you would certainly learn something you're motivated by learning that's appropriate for an interview. Let's take it to the next level. You volunteer to be an officer, but not the top officer because you want to actually provide your own effort and you're willing to reach out to other members and see if you can involve them as well, you want to see if you're horizontally influential. Here's a secret. In for profit organizations early in your career, they watch you to figure out whether or not you're influential horizontally. And if you are, they want to get you ready to formally supervise. This is why you're doing this. So if you're the top officer, one of the secrets, I'll look to Emma and see if she's done this. One of the secrets is to have lots of officers, because the officers tend to do much of the work of a student organization. And when a person commits to that role, they hold themselves more accountable, and their leaders hold them more accountable. They hold each other more accountable. So if you can at least be an officer in one student organization, and you can emphasize that explaining this whole journey can be an important part of you. Letting your future employer or internship provider know that you understand that leadership is developed and that you're going through that process yourself. There are companies who say that learning to lead is 70% doing it, 20% having a mentor or mentors and a coach, usually a boss, a good boss who develops you, and 10% courses and literature and actually having frameworks in the head to deal with this.
[00:21:48] Sean: So you said something here interesting. I'm going to go off script. Ken, can you talk about that last point a little bit? Because I think that's a trap that I've fallen into, and many of you may fall into as well, is assuming that a boss may be a mentor coach for you. So how do you suggest being able to identify early if that manager is gong to fill that role for you? And how do you even, regardless if they're a good one for that or not finding other mentors in the company or outside?
[00:22:15] Ken: I have had 22 civilian bosses. I don't count the military ones because I don't remember them. The only thing I ever wanted out of the army was me. In a variety of settings, not for profit and for profit, I find that many people choose their next boss, and they do it in subtle ways. I'd like to work in that department. I'd like to broaden my experiences. What they're really doing is they're saying, I'd like to work for her because she is known to develop her people. It's the development secret. I believe that when you ask people what do good leaders do? You can collect, like that 50 different words, dimensions of what good leaders do. I think there are five that are key. Here's what to look for in those leaders. You would like to have coaching and developing you. Number one is respect. If they show respect to others, they'll show respect to you, and it means they respect themselves. Identity. When you see a leader who knows who a person is and why their contribution to the team is valuable and occasionally says, so, you have someone who understands. You have a leader who understands what identity is, your version of identity is. Do you know what your strengths are and do you display them at work? I sometimes call these superpowers. What are your strongest elements? Number three is caring. Leadership literature uses this word perhaps less than most words that are associated with leadership. I'm still trying to figure out why caring is an expression that says, I will extend myself for you. That's from the leader to the person being led. Why do they do it? Number one, because there may be a need. And number two, because it tightens the bond. If a person cares about you as a team member, the team member is far more likely to care about the mission. There's a one liner in leadership right here. It's from the employee point of view. I can't hear what you say until I know that you care. Number four is appreciation for those of you keeping track at home. I build this from the bottom up because I started doing it with explorers who are all geologists. R-I-C-A-D. Respect. Identity. Caring. Appreciation. Appreciation. Among these five items is the item that is most likely to change when you change national cultures. Dutch people do not want to be commended in front of their peers. They think it's too much, and they fear that others are thinking, why him and not me? Why her and not me? So we have that element going on. The one on top is development. If all of these elements are in place, you're choosing a boss who will coach you. I distinguish between coaching, that is, the development you receive from a boss, and mentoring. In this way. Mentors, I think, should not be in your direct chain of command, at least not now. That's the conversation you have in a coffee shop when you bring up the fact that you think you have learned a good deal in your current job and you might need to move on. I believe it's Gallup who did the study that says three and a half years in the same job. Most people update their resumes. Doesn't mean they leave, but they start reflecting on what they've learned and they notice that their learning curve is flattening out. That's an important aspect. So you want a mentor, and I'll tell you a secret, and I really got into this in shell. Have more than one mentor and get them early. And by the way, a study from Indiana university showed that 64% of mentor mentee pairs never used the words with each other. They simply developed the relationship without formalizing it. And then I came to understand why at Royal Dutch Shell 15 person executive committee, my boss was on it. She was one of the 15. And I identified in particular with a rather introverted person named John Darley. And John Darley said to me one day, in a candid moment, when a young person says to me, John, will you be my mentor? My first thought is, is this a life sentence? It feels like it never ends. What I want it to be is for a time, because I want to know that they're growing and they're attracting other mentors. And then here comes a huge secret. I used to say to the new crop of college graduates, and we mostly hired straight out of school, I used to say to them, on your fifth service anniversary, these things need to be true. You need to have changed geographies, departments, teams, bosses. You should have more than one mentor, and you should be mentoring at least two people. The only thing european students go nuts over is the thought that they can be mentors at age 28. They think they can't be mentors until they're 50 because wisdom always flows downhill. But you know, things in five years that you can use to help people that were hired when you were passing your third year, be a mentor early, strong encouragement.
[00:26:49] Sean: Well, I don't think we have to tell our scholars. Many of them in the room are peer mentors as part of Showtime and our new scholar experience. So we know that even current students can be mentors to those coming right after them. So I think that holds true through your whole career.
[00:27:03] Ken: Spread that around in your whole career. Yes, indeed. Thank you.
[00:27:06] Sean: So I want to take this time just as a reminder. If you have a question you want to follow up on something we've talked.
[00:27:10] Ken: About, it's a great time.
[00:27:11] Sean: And introduce yourself, ask question. Otherwise, we'll keep going. There's a time for Q a built in. I see. A.
[00:27:18] Ken: So I'm proud of you already because you could have claimed you were trapped behind her chair and you're not.
[00:27:24] Sean: All right, so why don't we introduce yourself? Year major.
[00:27:28] Emma Chaplin: Hi, my name is Emma Chaplin. I'm a sophomore majoring in environmental resource management and minoring in international agriculture. And so my question for you is, when you were working as a consultant, did you ever encounter projects that you had to consult on that you maybe personally or ethically didn't agree with. And then how did you keep your own personal feelings about the project out of your job when you were consulting on it?
[00:27:51] Ken: Wow. This sounds like a question coming from someone who would like to be a consultant.
[00:27:56] Emma: It's definitely been a thought of mine, yeah.
[00:27:57] Ken: Okay. Show of hands. In this room, how many pursuing consulting? Only one or two. Okay. That's still all right. There will be others who will hear the podcast who may be headed for consulting. First of all, I believe that consulting is a great choice for a person who isn't totally sure exactly the path they want to have as a career. It's the best way I know of to be well paid to look for the opportunities that might fit you. I love the ethical part of this question because there comes a point when you say, not me. There's the famous case of baby formula that was rejected in the European Union and was sold to third world countries. They simply pushed the problem into poor countries. If you're part of something like that, you have to draw the line and pull back. Fortunately, I've not faced those, but I have faced something else. I started working as a consultant for a financial services company in a major city, and it surprised me how negative the culture was. In fact, a better word than negative was mean. People were mean to each other. There was a sense of put down so that if I put someone else down, I've elevated myself and I couldn't figure it out. I had been around about six weeks. We're in the corridor, and the person who was hosting me for this assignment was taking me to another interview. And we passed the CEO. And I was introduced to the CEO, and I knew instantly what the problem was. I resigned from the assignment that day. There is no way you can overcome a selfish leader. And by the way this played out, about six weeks later, he was able to exercise the options and the golden parachute because he already knew this company was for sale to a much larger financial firm. Sometimes you just have to do it. I can tell you that I went home with a sense of relief. I could breathe again. I actually dreaded the assignment, and I didn't realize it. You're head down, but what you really need to do is realize that it's actually a trap.
[00:29:54] Emma: Well, it's good that you felt that sense of relief after you left. It's how you know you made the right decision.
[00:29:58] Ken: Thank you. Yes, indeed. Awesome.
[00:30:00] Sean: Thank you.
[00:30:01] Emma: Thank you for your answer.
[00:30:02] Ken: My pleasure. Someone else, please. You're up.
[00:30:05] Gave Marshall: Hi, my name is Gabe Marshall. I am a second year studying supply chain management with a minor in the legal environment of business.
[00:30:13] Ken: Oh, good.
[00:30:13] Gabe: I know you talked a lot about kind of reflecting on your leadership, but have there been times where you've reflected and you've regretted certain ways that you have maybe mentored others and how you've kind of dealt with that and how you've kind of worked to strive to be better as you've consulted and mentored.
[00:30:29] Ken: Others in your career? Wow. Leadership can never be about perfection. Honestly, if there's a perfectionist in your psyche, you might want to consider other work. I make mistakes every day. I have led. The largest group I've ever led is 131 people, and they were in six divisions, so there were subordinate leaders underneath it. I've led leaders and led frontline. I've also found that, though I think I do it reasonably well, I know I'm not perfect when overwhelmed with work. I have at times gone head down into the content of the work when I should have put my team as absolute number one. I have seen a number of leaders do this, and I have to, unfortunately say I've done it myself. Probably the thing I regret the most in leadership is when I was in a highly visible position and I allowed my head to say, how does it make me look if I give this answer? And how does it make me look if I give this answer when what really needs to happen is, number one, what's best for the team? It's either the team or the customer. You either put the team first and trust them to serve the customer, or you put the customer first and inculcate that in the team so that in the future they will do that. Sometimes you go into leadership and you inherit a culture that you need to shift. So those are the big places for me. I do like to have someone tell me if I'm noticing something or if I'm not noticing and they are. I like to have that piece of feedback, and like everybody, I prefer to have it privately. Just as I think we should give negative, we should give correction to our team members individually and privately.
[00:32:05] Gabe: Thank you so much.
[00:32:06] Ken: Thanks for the question. You bet. Someone else, please. And by the way, it's okay if you line up next to that chair. Yes, sir. Hello.
[00:32:12] Connor Nasiger: My name is Connor Nasiger. I'm a first year architecture student, and I was just interested in how you mentioned horizontal influence, because I think that's a really interesting concept. And as a first year, obviously, I'm just kind of curious, what do you think the best way to start developing those skills would be? And I know you mentioned the best way to develop leadership is to do it, but especially with the horizontal aspect.
[00:32:35] Ken: I may surprise you as I start this answer. The best thing you can do before you begin to develop those horizontal skills is ask yourself two questions. Number one, when have I been led already in my young life? When have I been led by good leaders and what did they do? So that's question one. Think through coaches, faith based organization leaders, teachers, members of your own family, including older siblings, if you like what they did. My older brother was a, you don't stop until the job is done. That had to wash onto me even though I didn't like it. Okay, so that's one example. The other thing you need to do that I strongly encourage is ask yourself this question. When have I led? Have you been on a sports team? Have you ever been a co captain outside of sports? Have you ever done it in a club? I mean, we're talking activities here at Penn State, but you could even go back into your high school years. Reflect on that reflection is nothing more than I'd like to organize this just a little bit. I suggest a blank sheet of paper and a pencil rather than inside your phone on this one and save it so that you go back to it. Even post it on your mirror or something. When did you lead? And related to the prior question, when were you as a leader? Even if it's horizontal and nothing formal, when were you more effective? When were you less effective? Looking back, what would you do to improve? Looking back, what would you do to celebrate when you were doing this? Well, I believe that you can find future leaders at age eight on a Saturday morning soccer field. It's the kid on the team that everyone clusters around. That kid has learned, though we are born with personalities, personalities are not permanent. This kid has learned. They like the positive attention from the other teammates, and they've learned how to get it. And typically the way they do so is to focus on the individuals and the team, and they'll get questions like, where should we go for ice cream after the game? That sort of engagement not coming necessarily from the eight year old leader, but rather coming from the group. The eight year old leader thinks, how do I make more of this happen? Robin Williams, may he rest in peace, was interviewed on public tv and said in high school when he realized he could make the class laugh, the very next step in his entire career was, how do I broaden that to broader audiences? That's how we learn to lead. Think about your influence and think about positive responses you get from peers. We don't do it by pandering to them. We do it by sharing a common goal. If someone says, let's start a recycling club, do you want aluminum or plastic to start? Aluminum pays better. So let's find the aluminum cans and go back for the plastic. But you involve them in something you believe in, and they believe in too horizontal. Thank you. Thanks for the question very much. Someone else. You'll notice that no one was injured by sitting in that chair.
[00:35:27] Sean: Well, we'll let you all stew on some questions. I'll ask a couple more of you here, and then we'll turn it back over, let your little brain gears start going.
[00:35:36] Ken: I like that.
[00:35:37] Sean: So we've talked about organizational culture. So can you define what that means and how to identify what your preferred type is? And then I think looting back to that first dune question, how to deal with that if it doesn't mesh with your values?
[00:35:52] Ken: Indeed, and it is related to that first question. I believe that culture in an organization is a set of expectations that we have for each other about how we will behave toward each other, toward stakeholders, that is, suppliers, investors, customers, et cetera. So it's a set of expectations for behavior. It is rarely, if ever, written down. In the financial services company that I joined, I found it easy to be the new guy. There were 165 officers, and I was the only one who'd been hired from the outside. Everyone else came to that level through career. I found that if you paid attention to the cultural values, that you could actually incorporate them when you did open communications or when you made decisions, et cetera. But I didn't come to this automatically. Let me mention my Penn State days for a moment. I knew as a business student at Penn State, as an undergrad, that I would not go to Wall street. And the reason I would not go to Wall street was, though I'd never worked there, I had met more than a few people who were here interviewing Penn State, and they were Penn State grads who worked on Wall street. And I could tell by the way they spoke that it was a cutthroat environment that deliberately leaders will cause younger employees to compete against each other, and not in a very positive way. At times it could be either zero sum or worse, negative sum. So I knew Wall street was out. And there was one other that I had picked up on the culture. And I learned this mostly from my Penn State peers at the time. This is back when dinosaurs roamed the valley. IBM was a major employer of Penn State students, and others would tell me how excited they were to get an interview with IBM. I did not want IBM, in part because of a joke that was circulating. Talk about a trivial way to make a decision. People used to say, IBM stands for I've been moved. You did not have control of where you would work, your work location. They started you wherever they wanted you to start. And if you were there twelve months or 18 months, they assigned you somewhere else. It was non negotiable. One of my values is independence. At least I want cooperative decision making. Another of my values is sincerity. Any business culture that is mean, I've told you that story. Or where they take shots at each other in order to put each other down, to me is insincere. I want to be in a culture that is other centered. I want the leaders to be other centered. I want the team members to be other centered, pitch in on something that we share in common. So that's how I made decisions about cultures. When I got to Royal Dutch shell, I found a lot of that because they hired directly from university for 85% of their hires. So I was an exception. I was an experienced hire. In that setting, you find that people know each other. They've worked together before. I went with a long service employee to the nation of Gabon, which is on the west coast of Africa, south of the equator. So if you were sailing along as Prince Henry the navigator did from Portugal, you would make the turn to where the west coast of Africa turned south. And there is the camp for shell. This fellow had been number two in that camp. He hadn't been there for eleven years. We walked into the camp together. People in the cafeteria, women who were serving lunches, ran out to hug Roger. He was appreciated as a leader and everyone remembered him. People he ran into, they had worked together in Brunei or some other location. Cultures can be deliberately created. This one was positive. It had sort of a club atmosphere to it. I worried a little bit I might not be accepted because I was an experienced hire, but it did work out awesome.
[00:39:29] Sean: Now, you've kind of alluded to this in some of your answers, particularly for some of the student questions, but can you talk about. There's essentially kind of three different types of skills for being a good leader. Can you define those?
[00:39:41] Ken: Sure.
[00:39:41] Sean: And explain what kind of the relevance, especially in club leadership and early career experiences by pleasure.
[00:39:47] Ken: Are we all familiar with three circle venn diagrams? I make a slight variation. I make the bottom circle, by far the largest. I then have two equal sized upper right, upper left. I'll do it for you. Upper right, upper left. Here's upper right. Here's upper left. In doing this, I label the biggest one task skills because that's why you'll be hired. If you're an accounting major, they're hiring you to do accounting, not to supervise accountants. If you're an engineer, they're hiring you for your type of engineering, et cetera. Science, computer science, management, information systems, all of that task skills for sure. As we begin to influence each other horizontally and people begin to notice that you're good at that, that what they're really noticing are your behavioral skills. So the upper right circle is behavioral skills. What goes in there? The ability to understand where another person is coming from. Gee, this person is upset. They don't realize it yet, but what's really happened is they're embarrassed, they're angry with themselves, but they're expressing it as anger in the workplace, that sort of reading of situations, or just simply you're in a meeting. I was taught by a great boss to notice what isn't said in a meeting. It's there, it's present. We sometimes call it the elephant in the room. With that in mind, if you're able to read situations, your behavioral skills are growing. Really, a great company should choose its best behavioral skill people to become leaders. You don't forget your task skills. What you do, however, is you bring them with you, but someone else is now the task expert. One of the best ways to get promoted to your first leadership job is to figure out which of your peers will be the next task expert and recommend it to your boss. The day you are asked if you're willing to become a supervisor, because as soon as you say yes, you've left your own boss with a problem they have to backfill for you. If you've helped that person get ready, you're ready to move earlier. So we've done task skills and behavioral skills. Now there are future skills. That's your upper left circle. What are future skills? It's the ability to read the marketplace, the changes in technology, what's happening with competition, maybe even what's happening to capital suppliers. And the reason you need a set of future skills is you have to. In NASA terms, you don't launch the rocket to the moon for where the moon is now. You have to launch it toward where the moon will be 45 hours later, because that's how long the journey is. You're doing the same thing with your organization. You're anticipating where you need to take that organization. People with good future skills go to the top or near the top so.
[00:42:14] Sean: Is it fair to say if you are able to have that vision of where you think your role or the organization or somewhere in between should be?
[00:42:21] Ken: Yes, exactly right. There's been a fair amount of work done in that space. I'll just mention one. And that's Michael Porter. He actually looked at what's happening in industry rivalry right now. Are there new entrants who want into this industry? Think about high tech. 1520 years ago, everybody piled in. Will there be new technologies? If you're making gasoline fueled internal combustion engines right now you're paying deep attention to Tesla. What will suppliers do? You're in the supply chain business. Yes, supply chain business. And also what's happening to customers. How are customer preferences shifting? Those can turn on a dime.
[00:42:57] Sean: And if you want to learn more about that topic, look up Porter's five forces. If you end up for the spiel students in the room, you're definitely going to learn about that. But if you're not in spiel, go look that up on Investopedia later when you're done listening to this episode. So can I have one more question before we're going to give a second chance for the Q A?
[00:43:13] Ken: Great.
[00:43:14] Sean: We're coming to the back end of our conversation. What are like three things that our scholars, the ones in the room, the ones listening later, can do early in their career, whether it's their time here at Penn State or in the first couple of years out in the workforce, to set themselves up for success. Once they've gotten that internship, they've gotten that job.
[00:43:32] Ken: This may come as a surprise. I recognize, especially in stria students, that all of you are interested, possibly in hundreds of things. You have these interests. The way you discipline. That is not to deny them, you prioritize them. Those interests that get fed when you have an internship, pay attention to that. Ask yourself, ABC, is this something that's really in my wheelhouse? Is this something I really care about? And does it fit my skills? That's an a. Am I willing to do it as part of my job because the team needs it, but it's not my passion. That's a b. Our careers are successful when we accept both A's and lean into them and we accept some B's because the team needs it. If it's a c, it's something you don't want to do. If it's writing a technical manual and you say to yourself, oh, no, oh, no, I do not want to write technical manuals with all that level of detail. Thank heavens there are others who have the personality, the interest, the skill set, and the desire to write technical manuals. Those are things that come to mind for me in this space. As to disciplining your many interests, a quick story. My uncle was a small town Pennsylvania physician. I asked him, how did you choose this career? He said, I chose the career I disliked the least. What I really wanted to be was an astronomer. Now, he was in college just before World War II. There was no space program. He actually said to me when I was in college, I figured the entire world needed six astronomers, and those jobs are already filled. So I went to medicine. He had the most beautiful telescope I have ever seen in private hands, because that was his avocation, that was his interest, his hobby. The other thing you can do to discipline your many interests is to say, it's not about never, it's about not now. You do the deferral thing. I literally have a framework in my head that says these interests are parallel. They're coming up the list. I'll tell you candidly, and I hope this isn't too grim. On my last day on this planet, I want at least twelve more items on my to do list that I haven't done. I would hate to run out of items before I run out of days. Give yourself some deferral items, but don't drop them off. They will. Through interest, some will drop off, and that's okay. It may take ten years for some to drop off, but discipline based on time and based on whether or not it's central to your career, I will tell you, you will be surprised. Things that have already happened to you in your life, interests you've already developed, interests you'll develop in the next few years will go dormant for 1015, 20 years, and they will come back and you will be involved with them again. If you don't believe me, there's a 50 year old book called passages by Gail Sheehy, and she actually talks about this characteristic 20 years later. Going back and picking up interests and incorporating them in your life. It's pretty special.
[00:46:20] Sean: Awesome. I think that is really insightful. And for me, I did stage crew in high school, tried to do some film stuff in middle school, tried a little camcorder for those of you remember what those are. And now I'm doing this. So kind of a pick it back up, but in a professional capacity. So you'll be surprised.
You come to college, you're like, oh, I don't have time for that.
[00:46:40] Ken: Pick it up later, if I may. My example for that, I got a pilot's license here at Penn State. My second year, it was the first semester I ever made Dean's list because I wasn't wasting my time. I was so busy with courses and getting the license that I actually got better grades. I flew about 150 hours. Our second daughter came along. My wife and I decided they should be raised by two parents, and I stopped flying for almost 20 years. Second daughter started looking at colleges. I went to the airport. I have since flown another 3000 hours. I use this much more now than I did at the beginning of my career. I'm very, very happy that I did it. I'm also happy I did not choose to be an airline pilot, even though that caused me to major in meteorology. As my first major at Penn State, I thought I was going to be an airline pilot.
[00:47:26] Sean: If you're listening, you're in the room here. It's okay if you haven't figured things out. People change careers and interests all the time.
[00:47:32] Ken: May I amplify between now and age 30? Just try things. Try to stay a year. If it doesn't fit your gifts and you don't care for the culture, if the culture is toxic, leave right away. No exceptions. Try to stay a year beyond that. Try different things. If you try sailing around the world and you're going to become an author, you need a set of experiences to write about. Or internships, or employment. Different levels of employment.
[00:47:55] Sean: Perfect timing, because I was just going to say, if we have a second round of questions from scholars, if you do wants to come up to the third chair with the green mic, this is the time to do so.
[00:48:07] Emily: Hi, my name is Emily. I'm a fourth year studying biology, and like you said, I feel like shrier scholars have so many different interests, and it is very typical for us to pick up another major, another minor. I picked up two minors during my time here. And doing that, I was a little bit scared because it's interdisciplinary with my degree, and you were saying about interests and your list of interests later in your career. For me, I'm always scared of failure. How do you know when it's the right time to pursue a new interest and kind of take a jump off the deep end with that?
[00:48:40] Ken: How to know when to pursue a new interest. I think the first thing we have to do is put down a framework we often assume and don't realize. And that framework is the following. Gee, I've done this. I've learned what I can. I'm driven by learning. I need to put this job down and go do something else. There's another 50 year old book called power, how to get it, how to use it, by Michael Corda Korda. And he says, don't put down the original job. Add pieces to your current job so that you're stimulated. You keep your learning curve moving up. The one thing you'll need to do is find student assistance. If you're at Penn State, hire them for the routine portions of your job. You're going to take some time and teach them how to do it. But that portion of your job, the more routine portions, are going away. You enrich your job where you are now if you need a popular culture. Way to remember this. There is a very old movie starring Steve McQueen, of all people, may he rest in peace, called the blob. It absorbs human beings and grows larger. It slides under the door, the whole thing. It is that image that says, this is what we're doing with our jobs. We're growing our jobs by routinizing and teaching others to do it. That is a great alternative way. There's also something inside us. We know ourselves better than sometimes we realize. We get dutiful. We're working the job. We have mastered it. Our learning curve has flattened out. That's the time to say to yourself, honestly, can I reinvent in this organization, or must I change organizations? I'll tell you quickly about a coaching example. One of my best bosses asked me to coach his son, who was already working for Dean Whitter Reynolds in the twin Towers in New York. And this is in the 1990s, so I'm coaching him. And Tim said, I'm kind of at a dead end where I am. And Tim was the son, and I encouraged him to interview for information inside Dean Whitter Reynolds before he started looking at competitive organizations. And he did. Not only did he do so, he was hired. Somebody wanted to hire him on 911. On 2001, he took his son to his first day of kindergarten. While the tower he worked in collapsed, his job change and his son's kindergarten saved his life. I did not know this part of the story until his dad, one of my favorite bosses, passed away. And at the memorial service, I found Tim. And Tim said, he gave me far too much credit. He said, you changed my life. I didn't. Tim changed Tim's life. But he did so by looking first internally and not asking for work, finding out what others did, and then asking, what advice would you give to someone who's earlier in career if they were interested in coming this direction?
[00:51:18] Emily: Thank you so much.
[00:51:19] Ken: Great question.
[00:51:19] Sean: Thanks your comment about the blob. First of all, a Pennsylvania set film for those from outside of Philly, I believe, was filmed in Phoenixville.
So for those of us who come from the eastern side of the state, well, fun fact. I'm sure you probably are aware, and if you aren't from there, you just learned something. But also your image of the blob also made me think of kind of that concept of work will fill the space. So being able to draw boundaries and set work life balance, right?
[00:51:46] Ken: Yes, sir. Exactly right.
[00:51:47] Sean: Is there any other questions from our amazing leadership consultant and coach? All right, so, Ken, what is a final piece of advice that you would leave our scholars with?
[00:51:57] Ken: A final piece of advice. May I actually do this through a process? May I ask you to think, what is it that we have covered? I'll ask for two volunteers. What is something that you could put in maybe ten words that we have covered that you find useful?
[00:52:10] Student: Safety briefing.
[00:52:13] Ken: You like that one?
Cool.
Yes.
[00:52:17] Sean: Someone in the back of the room said, the safety briefing.
[00:52:20] Ken: Yes, indeed. You like the safety briefing. I really appreciate it. Thank you. One other, please. Yes, yours.
[00:52:25] Student: I like to talk about pursuing, trying to pursue all the interests.
[00:52:29] Sean: And a second scholar said, the talk about pursuing all of the different interests that you have.
[00:52:34] Ken: Yes. And some of which can be avocational. We don't have to go through the pain of putting them down. That's the most important part. There's psychological loss when we say, oh, well, I can't pursue that because now I have a job, now I have a mortgage, now I have. Now I have. Absolutely right. As a final piece of advice, be playful about the career thing and most of all, extend yourself. I do occasionally run into people who get a job and they think, I've arrived. I'm going to do the minimum I can without getting fired. They don't bring spirit to it. I honestly don't think this will be a problem for you statistically. And I think this is Gallup also supposedly university graduates. At some time during their career, 56% will be in leadership jobs. How much higher do you think that number is for Schreyer students? I will bet you that number is over 90%. Teach yourself to lead long before you ask to do it formally. I think you'll be glad you did.
[00:53:27] Sean: And even the simplest thing to start group projects. Right. Probably a really good place to start. Your student council committees, your thawn committees. Great places to start.
[00:53:36] Ken: It is said that Thon is one of the best, not only the largest student run charity in the world. That it is one of the best led charitable efforts, in part because of documentation and measurement. When you get an assignment with Thon, your predecessor from the prior year has to have documented what was done. It's really cool.
[00:53:54] Sean: Ken, obviously, we're wrapping up our time here for the folks who are in the room. Maybe they think of a question later for scholars who are listening to this asynchronously later on their favorite podcast app. After they've hit the like button, they subscribe follow on their favorite podcast app of choice. If you haven't already, how can they connect with you after the fact? If they want to continue this conversation, ask a follow up question.
[00:54:15] Ken: I'd be honored to get messages on LinkedIn. The best way to find me is I don't use my full first name. I'm always called Ken. Ken Graham Graham. And then there's a comma, and I added PhD because there are too many Ken Grahams. And if you do Ken Graham, comma, PhD, bang, it shows up perfect.
[00:54:33] Sean: I'm sure if you throw in the Penn State filter, I'm sure that helps, too.
[00:54:36] Ken: The Penn State filter probably would help a great deal. Yeah.
[00:54:40] Sean: All right. Well, Ken, here on following the gone, the final question I was asked is, if you were a flavor of Berkeley creamery ice cream, which would you be? And most importantly, why would you be that flavor?
[00:54:50] Ken: And most importantly, why? This is an easy one for me to answer. Peachy Paterno is the answer. First of all, I love the flavor of peach. I buy yogurt and peach flavor, etc. There is a second reason, and I hope you'll appreciate it. When I was a faculty member here, I came North Atherton street to turn left onto Park Avenue. Joe Paterno had come out of the back of Nitney Line Inn, which was then open. And as I was turning the corner, he stepped off the curb into the street. I slammed on the brakes, and, I mean, I had to slam them on hard. I didn't end up super close to him, but I know that it created a sound because he looked up, held up his hand this way, like, I'm really sorry, and stepped back. I was here during the Joe Paterno era, and I liked the value set. Academics before athletics, and both should succeed. I liked all of that. But that day, I had to reflect what happens to a junior faculty member at Penn State who runs over Joe Paterno.
Do they force you out of town? I mean, what are the consequences? I was much more careful at that corner ever after. It's a great memory may he rest in peace.
[00:56:00] Sean: And that is a wicked corner right there, too.
[00:56:02] Ken: Yes, it is.
[00:56:03] Sean: So I can totally picture that in my head. So, Dr. Ken Graham, thank you for all of your insights. Thank you to student council for hosting us. I really appreciate all the great questions that you all brought to the table. And you heard how to get a hold of Ken when inevitably you're like, oh, I should have asked that. Or if you're listening later, as you're listening to this and you digest it, you know how to get a hold of him. So, Ken, thank you and really appreciate it. I'm going to let you have the very last word here.
[00:56:28] Ken: Yes, indeed. I am a believer in LinkedIn. I like it. It's the only social media platform that I'm on. About 85% of the people I'm connected to are Penn staters, and many, many of them, a majority of them, are Schreyer. And the reason is because I look at profiles that are suggested. If you put the word Schreyer on your page, I'm very likely to have asked you to connect with me. If I haven't seen you presented yet, perhaps that opportunity is coming up. I also have some prior and current clients that I am connected to, and they will tell me that they enjoy what I write for student populations. I think I've put four articles on there, and one of the things I often do is in the first paragraph, I say a number of you will realize I write these primarily for those who are doing the transition from Penn State to the world of work. And that's the reason behind the article. I look forward to it. I'd like to thank everybody in this room. Thank you. Whether you spoke up or not, I did see smiles when we talked about lots of interests, and I'd like to thank the people who will hear this asynchronously. I know you're thoughtful. The reason I know you're thoughtful is because you've been through Schreyer and you've dealt with some of the things that these good students have mentioned tonight. Thanks so much.
*GONG SOUND EFFECT*
[00:57:49] Sean: Thank you Scholars for listening and learning with us today. We hope you will take something with you that will contribute to how you shape the world. This show proudly supports the Schreyer Honors College Emergency Fund, benefiting Scholars experiencing unexpected financial hardship. You can make a difference at raise.psu.edu/schreyer. Please be sure to hit the relevant subscribe, like, or follow button on whichever platform you are engaging with us on today. You can follow the College on Instagram and LinkedIn to stay up to date on news, events, and deadlines. If you have questions about the show or are a Scholar Alum who'd like to join us as a guest here on Following the Gong, please connect with me at
[email protected]. Until next time, please stay well and We Are!
